Here's the question for the day: What are the characteristics of a comic book death that make it mean something? What I mean is, some deaths are described as "cheap" or "gratuitous", so what, in your opinion, would make a death something more than that?
Does there have to be some sort of foreshadowing, either within the issue, or in previous issues, or can it happen almost out of the blue (this ties in to my post for tomorrow)? Does a death with lots of gore necessarily have less meaning than one that's implied, or happens off-panel? What I mean here is that we know it happens, we just aren't shown it directly, maybe just blood splattering on the wall, plus a gunshot sort of thing.
Should the death have lasting consequences for the title it happens in, or can a death not having any consequences, or seemingly affecting characters within the book be meaningful in its own way?
Are deaths in big events cheaper than those in regular, ongoing titles?
Is there any particular blueprint, or is it a matter of how well the creative team does selling the death?
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12 comments:
You say "meaningful death" and my first thought is of Collosus. I'm not a fan of Lobdell's writing, but that issue in which Piotr sacrificed his life to save every member of the mutant race, it was well done and touching.
It was meaningful to me because it made sense. Over the course of several different writers, Piotr had lost everyone. We saw the toll it took on him and we saw him come to terms with that pain. And in then end he still gave everything to the cause. He was a perfectly heroic man, human even in his two-dimensional form.
My brain's freezing up on examples, but when I think meaningless death I think of one character, especially an established one, is killed off to establish the toughness of a new character, especially an obvious Mary Sue. I dunno, Vulcan masterminding Banshee's death in Deadly Genesis (I think that's how it happened). Similarly, when a character is killed because the company wants to go in a darker direction. Kaine killing all those villains and Superboy going nuts in Infinite Crisis, Ultimate Wolverine (seemingly!) decapitating Ultimate Sabertooth.
But a lot of it is how its handled. Do we see anybody mourn? Is anyone affected? Is it a moment of drama and emotional resonance, or is it done simply for shock effect?
One death that recently pissed me off was Ultimate Mr. Sinister, who succeeded in suffocating himself...off screen. I guess Kirkman just wanted to get rid of that plot thread or something.
A death should mean something, and a hero, if he or she is killed should go out with a certain dignity. Blue Beetle (oh TED!) had a good death, defiant to the end, he stood up for his ideals even though he died for them.
Jade on the other hand, had a silly death. She didn't do anything heroic, she was just floating there, and BAM! Dead.
I despise it when good characters are simply used as cannon fodder to make the villain look more bad-assed. That's what nameless civilians are for!
That time Aunt May died in the 90s was pretty brutal. I think it's because the story really took the time to slow down and focus on the impact of the death on Peter and MJ. The fact that it took place in the middle of the Clone Saga, that piece of crap, only made it that much more poignant.
Unfortunately, May's death could never have that kind of punch again since they brought her back, thus proving that even the MOST mundane character in the Marvel Universe can actually defy Death. What does Thanos see in that chick anyway? Having brought back Bucky, death in the MU has officially become completely incidental (although that doesn't mean it can't still be used to tell good stories, just weird ones).
I'm actually not that pissed off about Captain America's recent death, though. I think it's kind of interesting how even in the Marvel Universe, nobody seems to really believe the guy is gone for long. I have no idea whether this is intentional meta commentary or just sloppy writing, but I think it's kind of fun.
jim: I'm in total agreement with you on Colossus. I'm sure Whedon's done good stuff with Colossus, but that death just seemed so well-done, it feels wrong to see him back again.
kanedoras: Yeah, it never really works when a character starts wiping out a bunch of other characters, just to convince us they're a threat. And I kind of think the problem is that all the focus is on the person doing the killing, rather than the people being killed, for the reasons you mentioned. We don't see any reaction.
How much reaction did we get from characters over Kaine killing Doc Ock? Stunner flipped out, which was something, but it still focused mainly on Spidey trying to stop Kaine from killing more people, and Ock was just a footnote.
sallyp: Agreed, Jade has a lousy death. I suppose that showing Alan and Obsidian's reactions (especially Todd's flipping out over Luthor's Jade) helped a little, but the way she went out doesn't lend much weight to it.
nothingstopstheblob: I totally agree with you about Aunt May's death. That shook me up some when I was a kid, especially that shot of Ben Reilly up on the roof alone, crying.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel writers were doing some commentary on all the resurrections.
i got mixed feelings about it..when someone dies like mamomax (the elephant guy in x-men) i dont mind..i think about the wasted storys we could ahve gotten but i keep it moving..when someone like captian america dies..then i think its wrong...it just is...to me its like killing spidey you just dont do that kinda thing. at all
the thing is i never read dc at alll..i did read crisis in the 80s and that was soo cool because i saw heroes die...like the flash ..to me since i wasnt a fan it didnt bother me it was just cool..when cap dies its not cool..at all. so i read crisis and im like wow dc is cool..so i ask around get some dc books..then i noticed somehting i hated....to me it seems like dc just kills its heroes to put some one else in the suit..like the flash the flash is cool..but flash number 123 or what ever number they are on is not cool to me...why even bothering having costumes if the heroes just switch them left and right...thats the main reason i never read dc..green later..wonderwoman...each heore has about 4 or 5 before them..even superman had at one time died and other "supermen" rose to take his place..how can a heroe be a heroe if....its just a suit that diffrent pepole wear..wanna know what made cap cool? steve rogers.nuff said..you could toss anyone in the suit but its not steve...you could toss any fast guy into a flash suit and its not barry . the only dc heroe i can think of that hasnt hasnt had an other person is plastic man..firestorm..green latern..the question...hawkman..etc etc..ohh and aquaman but no one wants to be him hahaha even batman had azarel..and to me thats all their books.....where as spidey is still peter from the block...and to me its because dc cant think of anything new to say so they kill the charecter and give it to a new guy..then we get the "new guy rising to the challenge of bein the heroe...but hes riddled with self doubt and inexperience (see kyle r) like flash right now..pulse learning to be a heroe.. hahah its so funny to me its like the same story every few years..newbie gets title of fallen heroe...other heroes dont accept him...crisis a rises and heroes band to fight it..new guy earns his respect and stripes...new guy gets killed..pow it starts all over...pathetic and im sorry to the dc fans im not trying to be a jerk but come one..how is he the fastest man alive when they got 5 of them??? and then even jsa wich is basickly a title about an old heroe giving his identy to a younger group as they "learn to fill the shoes" and maybe im wrong im sorry if i am..but as an outsider thats what i see and dont get me wrong i love green latern!! like wow ..thats the one of the coolest premises ever!! think about it a person in each sector of the galaxy gets a guardian to protect the others soo cooll..see and that concept you can change the charector...you can have millions of these guys yuno??but due to them interchanging clothes likes its a barbie dress up party im scared ill buy issues 7-9 years down the line pow he dies and we get the story again..newbie hereo trying to fill shoes so i dont even bother...and then superman..is he the last one from krypton??? thats what they say yet..we got superdog....super villian zod and his homies and a kid...a girl..a boy..seems to me that for a guy who is to be "alone in a world he dosent belong in" then why does he got a posse???last survivor my a$$!!
and im rambling huh?
but yeah deaths are not cool..and if they do kill a charector then let it stay dead ...dont give a new guy caps shield...dont give a new guy the ring..dont give a new gal a lasso etc etc.
if the concept of a charector is so broken you kill them then dont try to create a new guy ..might as well save the trouble and make the exsisting guy work..like a real writer should...imagine if disney did that....a disney meeting: the kids arent feeling mickey we cant think of any new ways to make him hip....hey no one likes rats..lets kill mickey and get a possem to be the new mickey and we can have tree top adventures!!!!then when some one evil like an eveil wizard then the possum can play dead..goth kids like death..lets do it!!!!! that would work!! yuno? for example it would be like if they killed mary jane then gave peter a new wife..its kinda pointless...you couldnt think of anything to do with mary jane ..so you kill her only to create a new charecter that does the same thing..it makes no sence. at all
if a writer cant think of anything new to say then a)work on something you do have something to say or b)create your own property and move on. but dont kill someone ..someone elses creation because you cant think of anything to do ..yuno?
gabesummers
p.s sorry so long hahah i can ramble at times hahaha
gabesummers: I am intrigued by this idea of an Opossum replacing Mickey Mouse.
And DC really does like to play up the "legacy" angle of their heroes. Maybe the fact that so many different people can be the hero is meant to imply that anyone can be a hero if they try. Or not, I'm not much more of a DC fan than you, so a lot of it goes by me.
I definitely agree that killing a hero just to have someone else take their place is lame. Have them share the role (Marvel did that with Turbo in the New Warriors for awhile), have one retire, heck have the newbie forcibly take the title from the old one (without killing them), but just killing them off does seem to be a questionable move. As long as the character is alive, there's always the chance some sriter will come along with a really great idea for them, that the fans will love. You kill the character off, then the writer has to waste time figuring how how to ressurrect them, or give up on the idea.
im telling you cal mickey possum is gonna be huge over seas..HUGE!! DAVID HASSELHOFF HUGE!!
HAHAH
but thank you for letting me ramble on and on hahaha your blog owns dude!!!*do pepole even say owns anymore?? i live in california and beleive it or not we still say dude...its not even a surfer thing anymore even the gangstas say it hahaha *
but i did re-read the other comments and the first guy got it right when collous died it was moving...when jean died the first time to..the funerals are good to show..but if its like new-x-men(academy x or new mutants it had like 3 names so far) where they are killing charecters to show the stakes have been uped!! then im not into it..death is sacred and should be used as such.
I think death is overused in comics. It seems like a "big death" is required to certify that a story is significant--no we're beyond that point even. It feels like the creators have to go into the story and decide who dies before they can really go forward.
It's become a requirement of modern comic book storytelling.
If the major companies would stop killing characters (as well as stop resurrecting characters arbitrarily), they would have a wider range of stories they can tell.
I think it's easy to kill a character. It's a lot harder to keep that character alive and make them deal with what's happened.
heck have the newbie forcibly take the title from the old one (without killing them)
That's a cool idea! Has there ever been a character in comics where the "new guy" actually physically defeats the old guy (even by killing him) in order to take over? (Maybe Rogue wrt Ms. Marvel, sorta?) It seems to me that even in the 90s the focus was always on how *totally awesome* the new protagonist was, so "fate" conspired to kick off the "lame old" version without dirtying his/her hands. I'd love to read a story where one of these characters is actually feeling guilty about the fact that they totally just stepped into someone else's identity.
gabesummers: Yeah, I don't think new X-Men needs to keep showing us dead kids to tell us the bad guys are, you know, bad. They could fail to kill people and still be dangerous.
len!: I totally agree, it's much more interesting to watch a character live their lives, than watch them rot in the dirt.
nothingstopstheblob: I can't think of one off the top of my head. I know Hal Jordan beat up Guy gardner once to take away his ring and be the only Green lantern, but that's actually the treverse, the old version taking the newer one out of the game.
Maybe when Storm (depowered) fought Cyclops for leadership of the X-Men. Except she was an established character at that point, and had already been doing the leadership thing prior to that. Hmm, something to ask the audience about.
Supergirl and The Flash died meaningful deaths in Crisis, although Kara's sacrifice meant little after the character was wipe out of existence.
I always thought Norman Osborne's death was memorable too, but we know what happened in that instance.
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