I've got an idea for a little study, but I need your help. Yes, just like Meatloaf at the Special Olympics, I am asking for the mighty comics bloggers to lend a hand to this poor boy. Now that I've run that into the ground, here's what I'm talking about.
I need to know about heroes who have killed, but have since sworn not to do so again. The death doesn't have to have occurred during their career as a costumed hero, it can have happened during an earlier part of their life (soldier, cop, mugging victim, etc.,). Cassandra Cain would be an example, even though she ended up killing again. In fact, if you could include whether they've kept that vow up until now, I'd appreciate that.
One thing, it needs to have at least been something referenced by the character at some point. What I mean is, Batman and Superman both used to kill criminals, but now they don't (Mostly? Is that time Supes killed 3 Kryptonians in continuity?). What I'm not clear on is the specifics of that change. Was there a point in their books, where each said "I'm not going to kill anymore", or did the writers just change the character at some point with no real explanation provided as to why the character's beliefs about killing had changed. If it's the former, by all means include them. If it's the latter, you can mention them, but I'm not sure that I'll count them.
The vague impression I've got right now is that in American comics, it's pretty much all-or-nothing. Either you don't kill, and never have (Spider-Man), or you killed before you were a "hero", and you continue to do that (Wolverine). In Japanese comics, I've noticed at least a few characters who for various have killed quite a lot at an earlier time in their life, and have since sworn, either to themselves or someone else, not to do so again (Kenshin and Ryoko come to mind quickly).
I may be over-generalizing here, but in manga, characters seem to become somewhat less bloodthirsty, or at least, killing is truly a last resort, only when they can't stop the person otherwise. In comics characters either remain the same, at least within the same version. There seems to be a difference between original (Earth-2?) Batman, and the current one. Barring that, they become more violent. They kill, and that causes a descent into greater darkness. I'd probably put Green Arrow and Colossus into this category. It just doesn't seem that characters go the route of getting less dark.
So any information you have on characters, cultural differences, your opinions based on what I've thrown out here, let's hear it.
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6 comments:
Is there a distinction between characters who have killed and those who are consistently just in favor of killing?
The reason I ask is that Iron Man has been consistently depicted as someone who has no problem with death as a final solution (cf. Operation Galactic Storm), but I'm not sure that in the last 10 years or so we've actually seen it depicted on-page.
(Usually it's Cap or Thor or some deus ex machina that prevents the killing from happening, despite the fact that Tony Stark just spent the last page and a half convincing us that killing him/her/it/them is the right thing to do.)
I think it depends on the manga you read, as I can think of many series off the top of my head that have a great deal of random killing, more so than American comics. (MPD Psycho, Death Note, Ninja Scroll, are some examples, all of the more "adult" related genre, but still...) But then Manga tends to cover a much wider area than American Superhero comics, so the comparison probably isn't fair.
One hero that's killed at least once but appears to not kill now is Sanderson Hawkins of the JSA. He'd accidently killed Johnny Sorrow, when he shot his dimension hopping device. And if you count pre-crisis (which is debatable in this case, as it's not directly contradicted, but doesn't quite fit in the timeline), he collapsed a hospital under said villains' control, and later ended up causing a crevasse to open up beneath the villain and crush him (it was in defense, sorta). So that's quite a large death toll for a teenage sidekick. While there's never been, to my knowledge, an actual overt vow of not-killing-ness, I don't believe he's killed anyone while in his adult career in the JSA, though, and is in fact one of the calmest and most level-headed, non-confrontational members.
I'll try to think of other examples for you later. :-)
What about like Nick Fury, who fought in the wars and killed plenty of people? And then as SHIELD commander I am sure had many persons "killed", even though he didnt' necessarily pull the trigger.
But as for actual "doing the needful", its a rarity.
My question is though, in all these battles where buildings are smashed, or collapsed, or cars are thrown, aren't there any bystanders that are killed?
Just another thought.
chris: I think there probably should be a difference, if only because it's one thing to say you're going to kill someone, and another to actually do it yourself.
kalinara: Yeah, no doubt there are some truly violent manga (and I do love Ninja Scroll) out there, it's just that I have this impression (probably incorrect) that you more often see manga characters be less quick to kill over time (Vegeta in Dragonball Z seemed to mellow a bit over the series), almost like they grow out of needless killing. They will still kill if they think it's necessary, but they become more inclined to wait and see what happens, to give a character a second chance.
Yeah, I don't know that there needs to be a scene where Sand comes out and says he won't if his actions demonstrate it (say, there's some hesitation in battle because he's afraid of going too far) that would qualify.
randy: Yeah, I'd figure the Hulk must have quite the body count by now, even with all the time he spends in "empty" deserts.
As for Fury, I'd bet at some point since becoming SHIELD commander he's killed someone personally. If not, then he might qualify, but I've never seen anything from him that suggests he's less inclined to kill an enemy than he was during his Sgt. Fury days.
I think part of the problem is a manga is often done by the same writer for much of the series, so it's a more singular vision, whereas comics have frequently got different writers, with their own interpretations, which makes it harder to figure the core of a character, to seom extent.
I think that a set direction with a character will allow the transition from killer to non-killer to occur in comics. When creators change on a fairly regular basis, such as with the Superman or Batman books, leads to characters killing or not, no middle ground.
It takes a lot of time, effort, and depth to really depict the distinction between these categories. It takes just as much to write a character that sits between these camps. But the moment someone with a different opinion comes along to work on a character, all that hard work starts to fade away.
Bronze Tiger, I think. He was brainwashed by the League of Assasins, killed Kathy Kane, and later in the Suicide Squad was always at odds with Ravan over the issue of murder.
I always like to say his name like his ol' teammate Captain Boomerang would.
"Brahnz TOI-gah"
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